If SC wants to be a successful MMO then no it does not. Casual player will not be interested and casual players is what will make up most of the playerbase. Eve is a big mmo but it's few and far between that make it as a hardcore MMO.
SC needs a lot actual work and gameplay mechanics With no actual point of the game, and what they do have released is mostly broken it's hard to say what direction cig will take.
I think for the stations and owning them. there could be a middle ground. they have some set stations that no faction controls. an org can then buy it or take it over by force and operate out of it. but then that would also mean that another org could come and overthrow them. would add a new pvp dynamic and power dynamic that would be meaningful. kinda like mentioned with karah.
have we not learned from other hardcore mmos? hardcore MMOs (like full loot) is already a niche within a big niche within the gaming market. Now imagine Star Citizen. A hardcore, full loot mmo with weapons and ship components that degrade, and no safe zones in space stations. Other than the absolute hardest of hardcore fans of SC, who would play this? Well not enough people to keep up the development cost that's for sure. You can have a few hardcore things, but CIG will have to appeal to the casual player first, and maybe the hardcore player second rather than the opposite
14:43 player run economies have never run well. don't even try and do it
Star Citizen will never be good for the same reason that the Jacksonville Jaguars are not going to win the Super Bowl. Is it "technically" possible? Sure… Jacksonville Jaguars are an NFL team… they are in an eligible conference… CIG are a game development company… they're developing a game… It's also technically possible that I could become the CEO of Ferrari… is it going to happen? No, I can't do it, Jacksonville Jaguars can't even make the Super Bowl, and Cloud Imperium Games can't make Star Citizen.
The hardcore community in MAJOR MMOs is small…a fraction of the population. Their apetite is vast, the work required to satiate them is EXPENSIVE, and unless you have player created emergent content systems…they will drop you as soon as the well dries up. They want a job and you need to create the work they have to do for the job…as a job. It is unsustainable (without crowd sourcing in the vein of player made content).
What you need is mass appeal, immediately satisfying gameplay loops, and a wide enough variety of content to keep gameplay fresh….at the get go.
Depth helps give you "worshippers"…people who go to your game every day on a cycle…but it doesn't give you shit in regards to mass appeal or money. People who can sink time, aren't people that can usually sink CASH…and cash is what makes your game big because it gives you the time and scope to build more game.
The PROBLEM with worshippers as your main gaming market is that when they find out "god's not real"…that their game is just a game, that it has flaws, that it has limits and it cracks under the pressure of their desires…they get mad, angry, vitriolic, and resentful. They wanted a second chance at LIFE in the game and they just got a game.
I mean, look at Star Marine? You've got a bunch of high-hours sweatlords pushing out anyone from using it to learn how to play…people don't play star marine because the people in there are at a skill cieling and the people that want to use it are at a skill floor. They can't compete…so they don't compete and Star Marine stays a dead gamemode. The game is too "deep" and "hardcore" to allow for new entrants…and so it dies.
There needs to be a space for casuals…and MOST of the space needs to be for casuals…or they won't fill it. —
The solution is and has been for YEARS….player created content. "Emergent systemic content" to be more precise. There are games that have player made content that don't achieve mass appeal because it isn't connected. Games like Dreams on PS4 which was just a pure sandbox "make your own game in a game" content…the problem is that the games are compeletely unrelated and don't build on each other. What you need is something more akin to GTAO…a game maker within a game…but the climate around it gives you incentive to participate in the player made content because it all still matters to the core game experience (financial incentive to play the gamemodes which gives you the money to use in the base game, etc).
Star Citizen SAYS they want to produce the climate for that…we just don't have any of the tools and it's still just words.
If RaStar is good, if player made content is sophisticated enough like tools for race making and betting and a way to give us the ability to make our own "quests"…you've got a game…it'll be fine.
—
Imo, the first step is content variety. The problem with games like NMS is that it is superficial variety. You get in, it all looks new, until you get to the 10th planet and figure out…the asset spread is so generic that they all look nearly the same with a swapped color pallet and shape language. It's superficial, it never acts differently beyond the more superficial level. You get your one acid planet and you've seen every "bad weather planet"….just swap the equipment you need…done.
Without a base level of content variety I think Star Citizen won't have the base infrastructure to last long term…player made content won't be able to be different enough to be justified to even keep trying new stuff.
You need systemic variety because variety keeps content FRESH…you can't just keep eating a really good steak and it stays tasty…it gets boring…throw on a few new spices but the texture is the same, the mouth feel is the same, the feeling after is the same. You need to throw some sushi in there, fried chicken, a salad, etc…so when you get back to the steak…it's just as melt in your mouth good as it was the last time.
8:00 hard disagree there. casual games allow players to either play them constantly OR play them for a bit, leave it, come back, repeat. Like there's a reason why ultra casual games like Minecraft are still popular a decade later
The whole reason I play SC is because you don't need to do missions, that's what a sandbox game is. Just make it good for every type of game play. If I wanted to play a regular game I would just go play any other game.
I really really dislike the idea of players controlling things more like they do in EvE. We're already going to have an absolutely terrible time with org zerg groups and you want them to be able to control and affect more? That's a no from me. Quantum needs to flex and adjust for that stuff.
Well, I’m a casual player (yes a Space Dad). There should be something there for casual players other than just grind, however there should be a lot of things that you need to work towards, otherwise you’ve exhausted the game in weeks or a few months. I don’t know how SC would have funded the game other than ship sales, so there needs to be crafting, station ownership, good org mechanics that allow org wars and the like as an end game.
I'm at the 9:00 mark. I want to point out, I've been a backer since 2013. Even in it's current state, with none of the things in the game you are talking about, I still come back and play, and it's been a decade, not just a measly year. Sandbox's are different than MMO's and I think trying to conflate the two is flat wrong. Sandboxes allow you to create your own adventure, make your own experience, since no one had predefined what you are supposed to be or how to act. MMO's lead you by the nose and force you to experience the same content as everyone else, and it never feels like you get anything done in the universe, as it always has to reset for the next player that has not gotten as far as you have in progression. This is why I fight hard to keep artificial skills that provide game bonuses, like marksmanship +10% to hit, out of games like this. Be an actual unique toon in the game, not some predefined cookie cutter copy of 20 thousand other people that happened to pick your "class". In SC I hope to be able to manipulate faction enough that I am on atleast nuetral terms with all of the various factions. That's not something the Dev's can code into the game, I as a player, create that opprotunity by the choices I make, not some NPC giving me missions to be neutral with everyone. Now, I will have to do various missions to work up rep with each faction, but the game isn't forcing me to attempt this, as a creative individual, I am providing my own gameplay.
19 comments
If SC wants to be a successful MMO then no it does not. Casual player will not be interested and casual players is what will make up most of the playerbase. Eve is a big mmo but it's few and far between that make it as a hardcore MMO.
Short answer: Yes.
Long Answer: Without them the game becomes identical to hundreds of failed scifi mmos.
What makes an actual game is mechanics. Without them it gets boring very fast.
SC needs a lot actual work and gameplay mechanics
With no actual point of the game, and what they do have released is mostly broken it's hard to say what direction cig will take.
I think for the stations and owning them. there could be a middle ground. they have some set stations that no faction controls. an org can then buy it or take it over by force and operate out of it. but then that would also mean that another org could come and overthrow them. would add a new pvp dynamic and power dynamic that would be meaningful. kinda like mentioned with karah.
have we not learned from other hardcore mmos? hardcore MMOs (like full loot) is already a niche within a big niche within the gaming market. Now imagine Star Citizen. A hardcore, full loot mmo with weapons and ship components that degrade, and no safe zones in space stations. Other than the absolute hardest of hardcore fans of SC, who would play this? Well not enough people to keep up the development cost that's for sure. You can have a few hardcore things, but CIG will have to appeal to the casual player first, and maybe the hardcore player second rather than the opposite
14:43 player run economies have never run well. don't even try and do it
Star Citizen will never be good for the same reason that the Jacksonville Jaguars are not going to win the Super Bowl.
Is it "technically" possible? Sure…
Jacksonville Jaguars are an NFL team… they are in an eligible conference…
CIG are a game development company… they're developing a game…
It's also technically possible that I could become the CEO of Ferrari… is it going to happen? No, I can't do it, Jacksonville Jaguars can't even make the Super Bowl, and Cloud Imperium Games can't make Star Citizen.
At this point is be happy with a complete game first before thinking about anything extra.
The hardcore community in MAJOR MMOs is small…a fraction of the population. Their apetite is vast, the work required to satiate them is EXPENSIVE, and unless you have player created emergent content systems…they will drop you as soon as the well dries up. They want a job and you need to create the work they have to do for the job…as a job. It is unsustainable (without crowd sourcing in the vein of player made content).
What you need is mass appeal, immediately satisfying gameplay loops, and a wide enough variety of content to keep gameplay fresh….at the get go.
Depth helps give you "worshippers"…people who go to your game every day on a cycle…but it doesn't give you shit in regards to mass appeal or money. People who can sink time, aren't people that can usually sink CASH…and cash is what makes your game big because it gives you the time and scope to build more game.
The PROBLEM with worshippers as your main gaming market is that when they find out "god's not real"…that their game is just a game, that it has flaws, that it has limits and it cracks under the pressure of their desires…they get mad, angry, vitriolic, and resentful. They wanted a second chance at LIFE in the game and they just got a game.
I mean, look at Star Marine? You've got a bunch of high-hours sweatlords pushing out anyone from using it to learn how to play…people don't play star marine because the people in there are at a skill cieling and the people that want to use it are at a skill floor. They can't compete…so they don't compete and Star Marine stays a dead gamemode. The game is too "deep" and "hardcore" to allow for new entrants…and so it dies.
There needs to be a space for casuals…and MOST of the space needs to be for casuals…or they won't fill it.
—
The solution is and has been for YEARS….player created content. "Emergent systemic content" to be more precise. There are games that have player made content that don't achieve mass appeal because it isn't connected. Games like Dreams on PS4 which was just a pure sandbox "make your own game in a game" content…the problem is that the games are compeletely unrelated and don't build on each other. What you need is something more akin to GTAO…a game maker within a game…but the climate around it gives you incentive to participate in the player made content because it all still matters to the core game experience (financial incentive to play the gamemodes which gives you the money to use in the base game, etc).
Star Citizen SAYS they want to produce the climate for that…we just don't have any of the tools and it's still just words.
If RaStar is good, if player made content is sophisticated enough like tools for race making and betting and a way to give us the ability to make our own "quests"…you've got a game…it'll be fine.
—
Imo, the first step is content variety. The problem with games like NMS is that it is superficial variety. You get in, it all looks new, until you get to the 10th planet and figure out…the asset spread is so generic that they all look nearly the same with a swapped color pallet and shape language. It's superficial, it never acts differently beyond the more superficial level. You get your one acid planet and you've seen every "bad weather planet"….just swap the equipment you need…done.
Without a base level of content variety I think Star Citizen won't have the base infrastructure to last long term…player made content won't be able to be different enough to be justified to even keep trying new stuff.
You need systemic variety because variety keeps content FRESH…you can't just keep eating a really good steak and it stays tasty…it gets boring…throw on a few new spices but the texture is the same, the mouth feel is the same, the feeling after is the same. You need to throw some sushi in there, fried chicken, a salad, etc…so when you get back to the steak…it's just as melt in your mouth good as it was the last time.
As optional stuff, why not.
Forced on every casual player… Surely not!
Isn't EVE online considered hardcore?
8:00 hard disagree there. casual games allow players to either play them constantly OR play them for a bit, leave it, come back, repeat. Like there's a reason why ultra casual games like Minecraft are still popular a decade later
The whole reason I play SC is because you don't need to do missions, that's what a sandbox game is. Just make it good for every type of game play. If I wanted to play a regular game I would just go play any other game.
I really really dislike the idea of players controlling things more like they do in EvE. We're already going to have an absolutely terrible time with org zerg groups and you want them to be able to control and affect more? That's a no from me. Quantum needs to flex and adjust for that stuff.
hardcore mmos dont last for good reasons.
X4 is a way better game so far..
Well, I’m a casual player (yes a Space Dad). There should be something there for casual players other than just grind, however there should be a lot of things that you need to work towards, otherwise you’ve exhausted the game in weeks or a few months.
I don’t know how SC would have funded the game other than ship sales, so there needs to be crafting, station ownership, good org mechanics that allow org wars and the like as an end game.
Quanta sounding like CEL token…
I'm at the 9:00 mark. I want to point out, I've been a backer since 2013. Even in it's current state, with none of the things in the game you are talking about, I still come back and play, and it's been a decade, not just a measly year. Sandbox's are different than MMO's and I think trying to conflate the two is flat wrong. Sandboxes allow you to create your own adventure, make your own experience, since no one had predefined what you are supposed to be or how to act. MMO's lead you by the nose and force you to experience the same content as everyone else, and it never feels like you get anything done in the universe, as it always has to reset for the next player that has not gotten as far as you have in progression. This is why I fight hard to keep artificial skills that provide game bonuses, like marksmanship +10% to hit, out of games like this. Be an actual unique toon in the game, not some predefined cookie cutter copy of 20 thousand other people that happened to pick your "class". In SC I hope to be able to manipulate faction enough that I am on atleast nuetral terms with all of the various factions. That's not something the Dev's can code into the game, I as a player, create that opprotunity by the choices I make, not some NPC giving me missions to be neutral with everyone. Now, I will have to do various missions to work up rep with each faction, but the game isn't forcing me to attempt this, as a creative individual, I am providing my own gameplay.